Discussion:
Multicast Message Size
(too old to reply)
Jahveen
2008-12-16 11:51:02 UTC
Permalink
Hello,

We have an application that uses MSMQ Multicast to send messages to
multicast listeners. The problem we have is that we have to break up the
message (around 3MB) into chunks as small as 10Kb otherwise the message will
not arrive at the listeners.

Is there any reason why this occurs?

Jahveen
John Breakwell (MSFT)
2008-12-17 12:44:32 UTC
Permalink
Hi

No, that doesn't sound right at all.
Do you get this problem if the listener is on the same machine as the
sender?
Or is it only experienced by remote queue listeners? If so, are the routers
in between PGM-aware?

Cheers
John Breakwell (MSFT)
Post by Jahveen
Hello,
We have an application that uses MSMQ Multicast to send messages to
multicast listeners. The problem we have is that we have to break up the
message (around 3MB) into chunks as small as 10Kb otherwise the message will
not arrive at the listeners.
Is there any reason why this occurs?
Jahveen
Jahveen
2008-12-18 12:11:00 UTC
Permalink
Hello,

This is experienced by remote queue listeners. The routers we use are all
D-Link brand, but I cannot find anything that tells me if the switches are
PGM-aware.

Jahveen
Post by John Breakwell (MSFT)
Hi
No, that doesn't sound right at all.
Do you get this problem if the listener is on the same machine as the
sender?
Or is it only experienced by remote queue listeners? If so, are the routers
in between PGM-aware?
Cheers
John Breakwell (MSFT)
Post by Jahveen
Hello,
We have an application that uses MSMQ Multicast to send messages to
multicast listeners. The problem we have is that we have to break up the
message (around 3MB) into chunks as small as 10Kb otherwise the message will
not arrive at the listeners.
Is there any reason why this occurs?
Jahveen
John Breakwell (MSFT)
2008-12-19 18:05:37 UTC
Permalink
Hi Jahveen,

Did you test using a listener on the same machine (or at least same network
segment) as the sending application?
If the local listener can receive large multicast messages then the problem
would appear to be on the wire.

One possible cause might be the time it takes to send the messages and how
fast messages are being sent.
Multicast has a fixed transmission rate and it may be that the larger
messages are taking too long to get delivered before timing out.
Or the messages are being sent too fast for the network to cope with.

From the MSMQ FAQ:
(http://download.microsoft.com/download/F/C/9/FC9989A2-DA75-4D96-B654-4BD29CF6AEE1/MSMQ_faq_updated.doc)
3.21 Multicast messages get lost on slow links. Is there any solution
for this?
Yes. Reduce the rate of multicast transmissions. By default, the PGM driver
transmits at 560 kilobits per second (Kbps). If this rate is too high, set
the DWORD registry key
HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\MSMQ\Parameters\MulticastRateKbitsPerSec
to a lower value (in Kbps).


And also this KB article (don't worry too much about the 4.0 version):
936267 Multicast messages over 1 MB may not reach the destination queue in
Message Queuing 4.0
http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;EN-US;936267

So experiment with MulticastRateKbitsPerSec (changing up and down) to see
what impact it has on your problem.

If local and remote listeners all have problems then the routers won't
network won't be the cause of the problem.
In that case, I'd recommend contacting Microsoft support services as that's
a weird problem I've not seen before.

Cheers
John Breakwell (MSFT)
Post by Jahveen
Hello,
This is experienced by remote queue listeners. The routers we use are all
D-Link brand, but I cannot find anything that tells me if the switches are
PGM-aware.
Jahveen
Post by John Breakwell (MSFT)
Hi
No, that doesn't sound right at all.
Do you get this problem if the listener is on the same machine as the
sender?
Or is it only experienced by remote queue listeners? If so, are the routers
in between PGM-aware?
Cheers
John Breakwell (MSFT)
Post by Jahveen
Hello,
We have an application that uses MSMQ Multicast to send messages to
multicast listeners. The problem we have is that we have to break up the
message (around 3MB) into chunks as small as 10Kb otherwise the message will
not arrive at the listeners.
Is there any reason why this occurs?
Jahveen
jfstephe
2009-01-12 16:39:02 UTC
Permalink
Hi,
Have you had any joy with this? We've got the same problem - the max
message size seems to be 64K in our case.
No exceptions are thrown or anything - the messages just disappear!?!
J
Post by Jahveen
Hello,
This is experienced by remote queue listeners. The routers we use are all
D-Link brand, but I cannot find anything that tells me if the switches are
PGM-aware.
Jahveen
Post by John Breakwell (MSFT)
Hi
No, that doesn't sound right at all.
Do you get this problem if the listener is on the same machine as the
sender?
Or is it only experienced by remote queue listeners? If so, are the routers
in between PGM-aware?
Cheers
John Breakwell (MSFT)
Post by Jahveen
Hello,
We have an application that uses MSMQ Multicast to send messages to
multicast listeners. The problem we have is that we have to break up the
message (around 3MB) into chunks as small as 10Kb otherwise the message will
not arrive at the listeners.
Is there any reason why this occurs?
Jahveen
John Breakwell (MSFT)
2009-01-20 17:56:06 UTC
Permalink
Hi

There are a couple of things I would recommend checking in the registry as
documented here:

"Multicast messages over 1 MB may not reach the destination queue in Message
Queuing 4.0"
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/936267.

Ignore the fact that the title talks about 1MB messages.
Check the two registry values to see if they are still set to the defaults
(or if they are there at all).

MulticastReceiversCleanupTimeout = 120000 ms
MulticastRateKbitsPerSec = 560 kiloBits per second

If someone has changed the values to be really small, it may explain what
you are seeing.

Cheers
John Breakwell (MSFT)
Post by jfstephe
Hi,
Have you had any joy with this? We've got the same problem - the max
message size seems to be 64K in our case.
No exceptions are thrown or anything - the messages just disappear!?!
J
Post by Jahveen
Hello,
This is experienced by remote queue listeners. The routers we use are all
D-Link brand, but I cannot find anything that tells me if the switches are
PGM-aware.
Jahveen
Post by John Breakwell (MSFT)
Hi
No, that doesn't sound right at all.
Do you get this problem if the listener is on the same machine as the
sender?
Or is it only experienced by remote queue listeners? If so, are the routers
in between PGM-aware?
Cheers
John Breakwell (MSFT)
Post by Jahveen
Hello,
We have an application that uses MSMQ Multicast to send messages to
multicast listeners. The problem we have is that we have to break up the
message (around 3MB) into chunks as small as 10Kb otherwise the
message
will
not arrive at the listeners.
Is there any reason why this occurs?
Jahveen
Frederic R.
2009-01-21 14:17:02 UTC
Permalink
Hi,

In my company we are meeting the same problem, in our case the max seems to
be 48ko, moreover a month ago the same messages were correctly dealt, we
don't know if the problem is caused by a security patch or by the PGM layer ?
Post by jfstephe
Hi,
Have you had any joy with this? We've got the same problem - the max
message size seems to be 64K in our case.
No exceptions are thrown or anything - the messages just disappear!?!
J
Post by Jahveen
Hello,
This is experienced by remote queue listeners. The routers we use are all
D-Link brand, but I cannot find anything that tells me if the switches are
PGM-aware.
Jahveen
Post by John Breakwell (MSFT)
Hi
No, that doesn't sound right at all.
Do you get this problem if the listener is on the same machine as the
sender?
Or is it only experienced by remote queue listeners? If so, are the routers
in between PGM-aware?
Cheers
John Breakwell (MSFT)
Post by Jahveen
Hello,
We have an application that uses MSMQ Multicast to send messages to
multicast listeners. The problem we have is that we have to break up the
message (around 3MB) into chunks as small as 10Kb otherwise the message will
not arrive at the listeners.
Is there any reason why this occurs?
Jahveen
John Breakwell (MSFT)
2009-01-21 15:03:46 UTC
Permalink
Hi Frederic

Did you apply the MS08-36 security patch recently?
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/950762
This update came out last May.

We're looking into whether the updated RMCAST.SYS driver has introduced any
issues.
I'll keep the newsgroup informed of developments.

Cheers
John Breakwell (MSFT)
Post by Frederic R.
Hi,
In my company we are meeting the same problem, in our case the max seems to
be 48ko, moreover a month ago the same messages were correctly dealt, we
don't know if the problem is caused by a security patch or by the PGM layer ?
Post by jfstephe
Hi,
Have you had any joy with this? We've got the same problem - the max
message size seems to be 64K in our case.
No exceptions are thrown or anything - the messages just disappear!?!
J
Post by Jahveen
Hello,
This is experienced by remote queue listeners. The routers we use are all
D-Link brand, but I cannot find anything that tells me if the switches are
PGM-aware.
Jahveen
Post by John Breakwell (MSFT)
Hi
No, that doesn't sound right at all.
Do you get this problem if the listener is on the same machine as the
sender?
Or is it only experienced by remote queue listeners? If so, are the routers
in between PGM-aware?
Cheers
John Breakwell (MSFT)
Post by Jahveen
Hello,
We have an application that uses MSMQ Multicast to send messages to
multicast listeners. The problem we have is that we have to break up the
message (around 3MB) into chunks as small as 10Kb otherwise the
message
will
not arrive at the listeners.
Is there any reason why this occurs?
Jahveen
Frederic R.
2009-01-21 15:15:02 UTC
Permalink
Hi John,

Thanks for your response.

We have applied this security patch, do you advise me to uninstall it ?
Post by John Breakwell (MSFT)
Hi Frederic
Did you apply the MS08-36 security patch recently?
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/950762
This update came out last May.
We're looking into whether the updated RMCAST.SYS driver has introduced any
issues.
I'll keep the newsgroup informed of developments.
Cheers
John Breakwell (MSFT)
Post by Frederic R.
Hi,
In my company we are meeting the same problem, in our case the max seems to
be 48ko, moreover a month ago the same messages were correctly dealt, we
don't know if the problem is caused by a security patch or by the PGM layer ?
Post by jfstephe
Hi,
Have you had any joy with this? We've got the same problem - the max
message size seems to be 64K in our case.
No exceptions are thrown or anything - the messages just disappear!?!
J
Post by Jahveen
Hello,
This is experienced by remote queue listeners. The routers we use are all
D-Link brand, but I cannot find anything that tells me if the switches are
PGM-aware.
Jahveen
Post by John Breakwell (MSFT)
Hi
No, that doesn't sound right at all.
Do you get this problem if the listener is on the same machine as the
sender?
Or is it only experienced by remote queue listeners? If so, are the routers
in between PGM-aware?
Cheers
John Breakwell (MSFT)
Post by Jahveen
Hello,
We have an application that uses MSMQ Multicast to send messages to
multicast listeners. The problem we have is that we have to break up the
message (around 3MB) into chunks as small as 10Kb otherwise the
message
will
not arrive at the listeners.
Is there any reason why this occurs?
Jahveen
John Breakwell (MSFT)
2009-01-21 17:28:17 UTC
Permalink
"We have applied this security patch"
Can you confirm that you applied the patch recently?
That is, the messages were working fine a month ago because the patch had
not yet been applied.

"do you advise me to uninstall it ?"
That's a tricky question.

If you leave the security patch, your application is affected.
If you remove the security patch, your machine is vulnerable.
You need to assess the business impact/risk to you of leaving it on against
taking it off.

Cheers
John Breakwell (MSFT)
Post by Frederic R.
Hi John,
Thanks for your response.
We have applied this security patch, do you advise me to uninstall it ?
Post by John Breakwell (MSFT)
Hi Frederic
Did you apply the MS08-36 security patch recently?
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/950762
This update came out last May.
We're looking into whether the updated RMCAST.SYS driver has introduced any
issues.
I'll keep the newsgroup informed of developments.
Cheers
John Breakwell (MSFT)
Post by Frederic R.
Hi,
In my company we are meeting the same problem, in our case the max
seems
to
be 48ko, moreover a month ago the same messages were correctly dealt, we
don't know if the problem is caused by a security patch or by the PGM layer ?
Post by jfstephe
Hi,
Have you had any joy with this? We've got the same problem - the max
message size seems to be 64K in our case.
No exceptions are thrown or anything - the messages just
disappear!?!
J
Post by Jahveen
Hello,
This is experienced by remote queue listeners. The routers we use
are
all
D-Link brand, but I cannot find anything that tells me if the
switches
are
PGM-aware.
Jahveen
Post by John Breakwell (MSFT)
Hi
No, that doesn't sound right at all.
Do you get this problem if the listener is on the same machine as the
sender?
Or is it only experienced by remote queue listeners? If so, are
the
routers
in between PGM-aware?
Cheers
John Breakwell (MSFT)
Post by Jahveen
Hello,
We have an application that uses MSMQ Multicast to send messages to
multicast listeners. The problem we have is that we have to
break
up the
message (around 3MB) into chunks as small as 10Kb otherwise the
message
will
not arrive at the listeners.
Is there any reason why this occurs?
Jahveen
Frederic R.
2009-01-21 18:20:01 UTC
Permalink
We have applied in june, but it's perharps in fonflict with another ?

In fact i don't see if it's an network or system problem ...
Post by John Breakwell (MSFT)
"We have applied this security patch"
Can you confirm that you applied the patch recently?
That is, the messages were working fine a month ago because the patch had
not yet been applied.
"do you advise me to uninstall it ?"
That's a tricky question.
If you leave the security patch, your application is affected.
If you remove the security patch, your machine is vulnerable.
You need to assess the business impact/risk to you of leaving it on against
taking it off.
Cheers
John Breakwell (MSFT)
Post by Frederic R.
Hi John,
Thanks for your response.
We have applied this security patch, do you advise me to uninstall it ?
Post by John Breakwell (MSFT)
Hi Frederic
Did you apply the MS08-36 security patch recently?
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/950762
This update came out last May.
We're looking into whether the updated RMCAST.SYS driver has introduced any
issues.
I'll keep the newsgroup informed of developments.
Cheers
John Breakwell (MSFT)
Post by Frederic R.
Hi,
In my company we are meeting the same problem, in our case the max
seems
to
be 48ko, moreover a month ago the same messages were correctly dealt, we
don't know if the problem is caused by a security patch or by the PGM layer ?
Post by jfstephe
Hi,
Have you had any joy with this? We've got the same problem - the max
message size seems to be 64K in our case.
No exceptions are thrown or anything - the messages just disappear!?!
J
Post by Jahveen
Hello,
This is experienced by remote queue listeners. The routers we use
are
all
D-Link brand, but I cannot find anything that tells me if the
switches
are
PGM-aware.
Jahveen
Post by John Breakwell (MSFT)
Hi
No, that doesn't sound right at all.
Do you get this problem if the listener is on the same machine as the
sender?
Or is it only experienced by remote queue listeners? If so, are
the
routers
in between PGM-aware?
Cheers
John Breakwell (MSFT)
Post by Jahveen
Hello,
We have an application that uses MSMQ Multicast to send messages to
multicast listeners. The problem we have is that we have to
break
up the
message (around 3MB) into chunks as small as 10Kb otherwise the
message
will
not arrive at the listeners.
Is there any reason why this occurs?
Jahveen
John Breakwell (MSFT)
2009-01-22 09:48:57 UTC
Permalink
Hi

There's currently a fix in development for the 64k limit problem.
No details on release date.

Cheers
John Breakwell (MSFT)
Post by Frederic R.
We have applied in june, but it's perharps in fonflict with another ?
In fact i don't see if it's an network or system problem ...
Post by John Breakwell (MSFT)
"We have applied this security patch"
Can you confirm that you applied the patch recently?
That is, the messages were working fine a month ago because the patch had
not yet been applied.
"do you advise me to uninstall it ?"
That's a tricky question.
If you leave the security patch, your application is affected.
If you remove the security patch, your machine is vulnerable.
You need to assess the business impact/risk to you of leaving it on against
taking it off.
Cheers
John Breakwell (MSFT)
Post by Frederic R.
Hi John,
Thanks for your response.
We have applied this security patch, do you advise me to uninstall it ?
Post by John Breakwell (MSFT)
Hi Frederic
Did you apply the MS08-36 security patch recently?
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/950762
This update came out last May.
We're looking into whether the updated RMCAST.SYS driver has
introduced
any
issues.
I'll keep the newsgroup informed of developments.
Cheers
John Breakwell (MSFT)
Post by Frederic R.
Hi,
In my company we are meeting the same problem, in our case the max
seems
to
be 48ko, moreover a month ago the same messages were correctly
dealt,
we
don't know if the problem is caused by a security patch or by the
PGM
layer ?
Post by jfstephe
Hi,
Have you had any joy with this? We've got the same problem - the max
message size seems to be 64K in our case.
No exceptions are thrown or anything - the messages just disappear!?!
J
Post by Jahveen
Hello,
This is experienced by remote queue listeners. The routers we use
are
all
D-Link brand, but I cannot find anything that tells me if the
switches
are
PGM-aware.
Jahveen
Post by John Breakwell (MSFT)
Hi
No, that doesn't sound right at all.
Do you get this problem if the listener is on the same machine
as
the
sender?
Or is it only experienced by remote queue listeners? If so, are
the
routers
in between PGM-aware?
Cheers
John Breakwell (MSFT)
Post by Jahveen
Hello,
We have an application that uses MSMQ Multicast to send
messages
to
multicast listeners. The problem we have is that we have to
break
up the
message (around 3MB) into chunks as small as 10Kb otherwise the
message
will
not arrive at the listeners.
Is there any reason why this occurs?
Jahveen
Frederic R.
2009-01-26 15:54:10 UTC
Permalink
Hi,

My company (ASF) has contacted Microsoft for this fix ...

Thanks.
Post by John Breakwell (MSFT)
Hi
There's currently a fix in development for the 64k limit problem.
No details on release date.
Cheers
John Breakwell (MSFT)
Post by Frederic R.
We have applied in june, but it's perharps in fonflict with another ?
In fact i don't see if it's an network or system problem ...
Post by John Breakwell (MSFT)
"We have applied this security patch"
Can you confirm that you applied the patch recently?
That is, the messages were working fine a month ago because the patch had
not yet been applied.
"do you advise me to uninstall it ?"
That's a tricky question.
If you leave the security patch, your application is affected.
If you remove the security patch, your machine is vulnerable.
You need to assess the business impact/risk to you of leaving it on against
taking it off.
Cheers
John Breakwell (MSFT)
Post by Frederic R.
Hi John,
Thanks for your response.
We have applied this security patch, do you advise me to uninstall it ?
Post by John Breakwell (MSFT)
Hi Frederic
Did you apply the MS08-36 security patch recently?
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/950762
This update came out last May.
We're looking into whether the updated RMCAST.SYS driver has
introduced
any
issues.
I'll keep the newsgroup informed of developments.
Cheers
John Breakwell (MSFT)
Post by Frederic R.
Hi,
In my company we are meeting the same problem, in our case the max
seems
to
be 48ko, moreover a month ago the same messages were correctly
dealt,
we
don't know if the problem is caused by a security patch or by the
PGM
layer ?
Post by jfstephe
Hi,
Have you had any joy with this? We've got the same problem - the max
message size seems to be 64K in our case.
No exceptions are thrown or anything - the messages just disappear!?!
J
Post by Jahveen
Hello,
This is experienced by remote queue listeners. The routers we use
are
all
D-Link brand, but I cannot find anything that tells me if the
switches
are
PGM-aware.
Jahveen
Post by John Breakwell (MSFT)
Hi
No, that doesn't sound right at all.
Do you get this problem if the listener is on the same machine
as
the
sender?
Or is it only experienced by remote queue listeners? If so, are
the
routers
in between PGM-aware?
Cheers
John Breakwell (MSFT)
Post by Jahveen
Hello,
We have an application that uses MSMQ Multicast to send
messages
to
multicast listeners. The problem we have is that we have to
break
up the
message (around 3MB) into chunks as small as 10Kb otherwise
the
message
will
not arrive at the listeners.
Is there any reason why this occurs?
Jahveen
John Breakwell (MSFT)
2009-02-17 19:34:54 UTC
Permalink
Hi

Keeping readers informed:
http://blogs.msdn.com/johnbreakwell/archive/2009/02/17/64kb-limit-on-the-size-of-msmq-multicast-messages.aspx

Cheers
John Breakwell (MSFT)
Post by John Breakwell (MSFT)
Hi
There's currently a fix in development for the 64k limit problem.
No details on release date.
Cheers
John Breakwell (MSFT)
Post by Frederic R.
We have applied in june, but it's perharps in fonflict with another ?
In fact i don't see if it's an network or system problem ...
Post by John Breakwell (MSFT)
"We have applied this security patch"
Can you confirm that you applied the patch recently?
That is, the messages were working fine a month ago because the patch had
not yet been applied.
"do you advise me to uninstall it ?"
That's a tricky question.
If you leave the security patch, your application is affected.
If you remove the security patch, your machine is vulnerable.
You need to assess the business impact/risk to you of leaving it on against
taking it off.
Cheers
John Breakwell (MSFT)
Post by Frederic R.
Hi John,
Thanks for your response.
We have applied this security patch, do you advise me to uninstall it ?
Post by John Breakwell (MSFT)
Hi Frederic
Did you apply the MS08-36 security patch recently?
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/950762
This update came out last May.
We're looking into whether the updated RMCAST.SYS driver has
introduced
any
issues.
I'll keep the newsgroup informed of developments.
Cheers
John Breakwell (MSFT)
Post by Frederic R.
Hi,
In my company we are meeting the same problem, in our case the max
seems
to
be 48ko, moreover a month ago the same messages were correctly
dealt,
we
don't know if the problem is caused by a security patch or by the
PGM
layer ?
Post by jfstephe
Hi,
Have you had any joy with this? We've got the same problem - the max
message size seems to be 64K in our case.
No exceptions are thrown or anything - the messages just disappear!?!
J
Post by Jahveen
Hello,
This is experienced by remote queue listeners. The routers we use
are
all
D-Link brand, but I cannot find anything that tells me if the
switches
are
PGM-aware.
Jahveen
Post by John Breakwell (MSFT)
Hi
No, that doesn't sound right at all.
Do you get this problem if the listener is on the same machine
as
the
sender?
Or is it only experienced by remote queue listeners? If so, are
the
routers
in between PGM-aware?
Cheers
John Breakwell (MSFT)
Post by Jahveen
Hello,
We have an application that uses MSMQ Multicast to send
messages
to
multicast listeners. The problem we have is that we have to
break
up the
message (around 3MB) into chunks as small as 10Kb otherwise the
message
will
not arrive at the listeners.
Is there any reason why this occurs?
Jahveen
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